• Rarity Belle
    		 I love you dearly Morello, but all you've done for patches and patches is come at us bro. I had my fingers crossed that the ever staunch players who stick it out for 1/12th of the game roster would get some love with the Jayce patch, and instead we get Riot trying to take Nunu out of bot lane (lol good luck) and another bloody Soraka nerf. Should support players just uninstall and go to a game where "supporting" means more than "look forward to more nerfs, until they can dive you at level 2 instead of 4?".

    You released Lulu, and it was really good. Then you nerfed her ratios. It was ok. Then you changed the methods on her ult. That was... meh. Then you nerfed her ratios again. We saw Sona nerf after Sona nerf until she's hard as balls to survive laning with. We keep seeing Soraka nerfs every patch. Nice that it took you months to change Grave's buckshot, which anyone who spends ten minutes in bot lane was and still is afraid of.

    TL;DR: Support player tired of seeing support nerfs every patch
    #1
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    		 I've made a big post on Soraka (I'll try to find it later, but it's a bit buried currently), and while getting nerfed does feel bad, she's still amazingly good at all levels of play. I'd also offer that Janna is a more traditional support and, despite nerfs, ranks high in top picks as well. Despite a lot of nerfs, it turns out restoring HP and mana is pretty strong :P

    Soraka being a primary support pick is problematic when she provides nothing but sustain. I know there's a good chunk of support players who literally want to heal people as their job, but as Soraka does it now, I don't think it's worth it unless she's a comparable pick (at best) to aggressive and zoning supports, or counters other picks effectively/is part of a more specialized teamcomp.

    This is not a popular direction with anyone who enjoys this playstyle, and my stance on this has been pretty clear on the subject, but I think we've always been conservative here (if we wanted to just remove her, there's easy ways to do that!) in trying to strike some sort of balance between letting people have this option and keeping bottom lane interesting.

    I also don't think equating number of nerfs to anything is a meaningful analysis - if you nerf something 100 times and it's top tier, it's still strong. If you buff something 100 times and it's never picked, then it's still weak - Soraka and Janna have remained powerful options for traditional support players for years, and I have little doubt that this set of changes will dent that much.
    #2
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by Deuterion
    Karma was up for buffs/reworks, but Riot realized she's a support. So nothing for her.
    Still doing it, but it's taking longer to get where we want.
    #3
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by EndlessCycle
    So why haven't you looked at her armor buff in lane? Once she uses it, its pretty much "Okay back off, that Graves can't be touched", lets play passive again.
    That's one of the changes in this patch, IIRC.
    #4
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by WalkTheNikasaur
    Why is it that you only take the "we are nerfing it until it stops being viable" stance with support champions?
    We really need a dev blog up where I can have this sort of information readily available for people!

    This is specific to Soraka - Janna is a different issue of raw power. Let's look closely at Soraka and what the problem is: mechanics that heal aren't problematic, dedicated healers are. "What, why?" Glad you asked!

    In order to be satisfying and impactful, characters whose job it is to heal need to be able to "erase damage" effectively with healing at a decent clip. If they can't, they feel useless most of the time while they wait for long cooldowns or do other offensive actions (which is counter to why you'd make a dedicated healer in the first place!). If DPS outclips the healing in the usual situations, they also end up feeling ineffective and weak, meaning that the healing-per-second also needs to be powerful. Finally, you're not getting the natural satisfaction of things like CC or kills, so it has to be provided in watching health bars rise and saving friends.

    OK, sure, so what's the problem with that?

    The problem with that is the type of gameplay that surrounds it for not only the opponents, but for allies and even the healer. By removing a big consequence for actions (damage and attrition-over-time), you remove one of the primary axis for overcoming opponents in any non-burst scenario - especially with the combat pacing in lane or when posturing for objectives like Baron or Dragon. This creates a situation where it's not useful for characters to engage in harass, poke or other non-lethal actions since it will basically be a waste of time, energy and resources. Additionally, since a healer can't provide much else to secure a kill (other than +time), the friendly is also at a disadvantage for trying to secure kills or create windows of opportunities to capitalize on.

    The natural counter to sustain is burst. While that does make it counterable, I'll point to Guild Wars 1, WoW PvP, TF2 or other games that feature significant dedicated healers into how that ends up changing the game into something much more single-dimensional from a strategy and options standpoint. I'll also point directly to how bottom lane plays out whenever Soraka's a top 3 pick (hint: extremely passively and even more farm-heavy, sans ganks).

    So, even if I can accept that, does that mean there's no character who should heal an ally?

    No - the key is here in pacing. I think the really good versions of this are the Heal Summoner spell and Wish. These skills have very long cooldowns and huge effects, but their healing-per-second is really poor. This means they're used for heroic saves, clever baits, and can turn the tide of a battle, while still having a good range of counters and a significant opportunity cost. The worst heal I could design would be a 1 second cooldown heal that did a hot for 1 second - it only sustains and can never be used in an active or dire situation effectively.

    Another option that I like is hybridization. Nidalee is my favorite example here, because even if her heals isn't the best-feeling skill in the world, it's still useful, and she can derive satisfaction through poke, zone control or kills as well, lessening the burden her heal needs to carry from a fun and power perspective. Nidalee is a shape-changer with a heal, as opposed to someone who just heals.

    Again, this may not make people who like the red-bars-go-up style feel much better, (and as a lot of us play MMOs or other games with these characters, there's an attachment to feeling helpful there, for sure) but I think it's important to make sure you guys at least understand our position and reasoning, even if you don't agree.
    #5
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    		 Additionally, this only applies to games where a single person can play a healer - games like Warcraft 3 or Starcraft don't have this problem because using Medics/Priests doesn't have to make the little guy feel powerful and good, they just need the right balanced, mathematical effect.
    #6
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by Kyeria
    This is something I've never understood. To be honest, I'm not positive why Riot simply won't rework Soraka into a support that focuses on harass, but CAN heal. Reduce the healing, revert the armor buff and increase Soraka's potential to actually "Fight".

    I'm tired of Riot saying Soraka is OP/Toxic to the game and then just nerfing her sustain. If you're going to continue this route, please just rework her.
    This is fair, and I think the sobering answer is that we're a bit scared to, me particularly. There's a devil on my shoulder that wants to support this well-known archetype, but I don't want to flare these problems up in League.

    It's a completely on-point critique on how we've handled this and means we've not made Soraka match our design philosophy - thereby making sure we can make her fun and non-toxic.
    #7
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by REDDROCKET
    This game is all about pleasing the CoD mentality crowd. "Frags" and "tons of damage" is what the developers want, screw support players, they are "toxic" to the game. They also make it "anti-fun" because it negates a portion of the "tons of damage".

    Nerf champion heals, buff summoner heal. LOL
    You're welcome to show how this hasn't occured in competitive-level multiplayer team games with a dedicated healer that has sustain and non-instant death. I provided 4 great examples.

    I don't have the expectation that players need to be expert designers to do analysis, but I do expect if you're gonna step up to have something to bring You're just blowing smoke out your ass.
    #8
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by Mittor
    Easy for you to say. My entire playstyle is being the medic/healer/cleric/etc. Soraka is the only real champion left that can do that. It's insulting to see over and over that I'm considered toxic and horrible for the game. That they just want to transform her into another herp derp I deal tons of damage and have a shield "support" ala Karma/Lux/Orianna.

    Everyone else gets a wide variety of champions to play and enjoy. Hell, they even get regular skin releases for those champions. I have 1 champion out of the entire cast, with only Taric in a distant second to play in the only manner I've ever enjoyed in video games.

    I hate dealing damage. I have tanking. I am not aggressive or blood thirsty. I enjoy supporting and every patch I see Riot telling me that I'm not having fun the right way.
    Do you enjoy Janna at all?
    #9
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by Mittor
    Why would I? I'm being completely honest here, I hate shields. They feel so dissatisfying. They don't give me the satisfaction and enjoyment being a healer does.

    I know her role as a support is supposed to be on the CC heavy side like Alistar. That's fine. But a shield for me is just a mana sink that ultimately doesn't change the situation you're in. yes, you've made the clutch save once in awhile, but your carry is still weak and has to go back. So the enemy still has accomplished their goal and pushed them out of lane.

    I use Taric as my second choice because he still does have that healer feel along with having some actual CC. His mana issues feel horrible for me though and his heal feels weak late game since he doesn't get any AP outside of a lucky pick and has no secondary effect.
    This is going to be maybe the most unpopular post I've ever made, but yes, I think we're not interested in supporting your favorite, long-loved playstyle of healing people as a job. This type of reaction is what's keeping me more skittish than I ought to be, but logically I can't say anything else and have it be correct

    EDIT: Trolled with upvtoes? ;x
    #10
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by Golden Saint
    So we're not going to get a comment from you? Me and a good bit of the community are crying out over the discrepancies in the lore. Please Morello.
    I know very little on the lore front - one of the creative designers would have to comment.
    #11
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by Kintanon
    This argument seems to be mostly focused around the idea that playing healer class characters isn't "fun". I find playing Soraka to be a lot of fun. I have a global affect on the game, the entire outcome hinges largely on how well I manage my heals and how well I protect my lane partner. That's a lot of fun! Making a character that is already weak even weaker isn't going to do much to help maintain that fun. If her heal is being nerfed is any of her offense being buffed? Why not? If you are trying to encourage a different play style with her then you have to use the carrot and the stick.
    The core argument is that the fun people who enjoy healers have takes a disproportionately high amount of fun away from other players, including allies. If no one found Soraka fun, this would be an easy decision
    #12
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by Rarity Belle
    Oi Morello.

    Wanted to apologize for starting a **** storm. Saw the nerfs and got in a huff over them and made this thread last night. Last time I saw it was on page three.

    I'm glad to see other Sona players think she's beyond useless now. I agree with that assessment.

    Really, I think what we're getting at is something you haven't spoken to though. If I can apologize for my harsh choice of topic title and ask a civil question: Why are there so few supports?

    The running theme of the thread is "We see only a few supports in the god tier for supporting"
    But our reply thus far has been "Well that's well and good, but there's only six true supports to pick from".

    Why in an almost weekly schedule of release (which, as someone who's done a fair amount of game work and balancing, I applaud you for) is there only one support for 2012? Worse, I think someone summed it up best when they said

    "And of course, there is also the fact we're only getting Lulu as the single support release for 2012. Zileas said there were no current supports being designed at the moment and since champion design takes 6 to 9 months we'll have to wait until at least March again for another support. Which will probably be played in every role but support again, nerfed because of it, and then given back to the support role as another broken toy."

    The only thing we got this year got nerfed hard in all directions because other people took her and used her the wrong way. I think we'd be less upset over being nerfed until we're "balanced" if we had alternatives. Is there a reason so few supports are developed? Is there anything we as a community of support players can do to help?
    This lack of supports is for a few reasons;

    * We made a mistake by not releasing one between Karma and Lulu. This cadence is unacceptably low, and combined with Karma not being widely played, this created a great valley of them from Sona to Lulu. Now, our goal on an annual basis is at least two per year, so I want another "true support" before 2013.

    * Because we want to avoid the mechanics we see on Soraka, we need to devise other ways to feel supportive and make it interesting. I think Lulu is a good character in this respect, as is Janna, but we're going to need more good core designs as well. Support are easily the toughest character to design, so all our prototypes don't always work out.

    * Broadening support (as a team function) to kill tanks and other classes lessens this burden a bit by expanding the definition of the role. I think players should be able to choose between both types depending on preference and strategy.

    * "True support" appeals to quite a few less players, so you probably won't see equal representation with mages, fighters or carries, but as I said, we need to be releasing two or more a year. Striking the engagement balance here is important, and it's been under-served historically.

    I think this release cadence is probably the biggest thing to fix on the "Riot hates support!" thing and has (unintentionally) given us that image. The nerfs I'm less worried about since their effect on the game and power is extremely high, so they get to be usable and strong despite several nerfs.
    #13
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by SodaPawp
    I guess i can't hate the honesty, but it is saddening to hear. I like Soraka a lot, but I can't say I fall into the 100% cleric archetype. I enjoy Janna as well, and used to be a Sona main until her poke was gutted.

    But things like this put me on edge because of the direction League looks to be taking. Riot seems (just from observation, making assumptions here) that you want the game to be more action packed during the lane phase, with less CS and gp10 reliance, and more getting gold from kills. But i've been a player that has preferred CC bot jungles and passive supports building nothing but gp10/aegis/shurelyas for as long as i can remember playing the game (started at Irelia patch). I enjoy passive lane phases, and I'm not a very good laner by any means (I'm delegated to Jungle and Support when i play with friends). I don't have the urge to kill things, i don't have the mentality to kill things. I'll make some aggressive plays, but they are within the realm of being a largely "passive" player.

    And as a person who mains Sejuani, Soraka, and Janna, patches like these are very discouraging.
    Support doesn't need to kill, or be passive. Janna is active and doesn't score kills, Leona and Alistar set up kills. I think these are well-done from a core level, minus Alistar's sustain.
    #14
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by supmate10
    This is kind of a double standard here... I hate to bring the Darius topic back, but he does serve as a good example in this case :
    You say healers make the game less fun for others players (and I totally agree that someone like Soraka can be painful to lane against with all her sustain), but isn't Darius also totally unfun for the whole enemy team since he only has to apply 3 auto attacks + his 2 damaging abilities to insta gib someone? And he also makes the game less fun for his own team by stealing all the kills, so why isn't he nerfed as well if your objective is to make champions less annoying for the rest of the players?
    If Darius was a problem for 3+ years in this way, I'd imagine we'd be having a similar discussion about him

    We probably got overzealous with the ult here from a fun/anti-fun perspective, and I think we could do smart tweaks to make this a lot better. We're not talking in the same terms of archetypes to avoid entirely though (dedicated healers), there's a character who has an ability that causes this - a much simpler problem to work on overall.

    Either way, it's easy to bring in other examples, but I want to stay focused on the Soraka and supports issue here. There's some overlap on the Darius ult, but the forces in play are completely different and call for different solutions.
    #15
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by Mittor
    Morello, I know I can be vocal about my particular opinion on supports. However I do want to say I appreciate hearing information about this. Although the widespread "NEW SUPPORT WHERe?" has died down since Lulu's release it's always a subject that concerns me.

    The only thing I want to ask is about the follow quote from Zileas where I got my original statement :

    http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...44466#26344466 it's at the bottom of the page. Can't link directly since the thread was closed.

    Since I can't assume to know what is considered "short-term" for people inside of Riot, I was just hoping for clarification.

    1) Is the statement actually accurate? And I don't mean any disrespect to Zileas by asking this, but it might just be a case of 1 person not knowing everything about every project. If that's the case it's not as troublesome.

    2) If it is true, how would you roughly go about making a second support release goal for the end of 2012 if you're starting from almost scratch? Would you rush the champion just to meet player expectations? Or take your time, bear the brunt of the forum's wrath and just release when it's done?

    There are more questions I would want to ask but those two are what are concerning me at the moment. Personally I would probably be more okay with a release in 2013, IF, and only if it meant we got a solid, well thought out pure/true support champion. I know Lulu was initially loved by all for not only her artistic aspects, but also because she was capable of ripping apart top/mid lane.

    I would love another support champion to "click" with, but that typically doesn't happen if that champion is designed be a "Utility Mage" similar to Lux/Orianna.
    1) Probably later this year at this point, but I want it out before 2013 as said before. Short-term to us is likely a lot longer than what it is to a lot of players.

    2) We don't have all the 2012 champs planned yet, so there's room at the end (and I've marked one of them to read TBD Support), but we have plenty of time to make it. Basically, we'd have to have it started by August or September to meet that goal. Archetype and fantasy are a big play here (as support isn't a good fit for "power fantasy" like killers are) and that can be tough too, though I think Lulu is a good example of one way to do that.
    #16
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by HughMyronbrough
    Lol, I remember Riot used to be fine with Alistar and Taric sustain because it was a minor, supplemental part of their kit, unlike Soraka.

    Then again, this is Morello we're dealing with. If he had his way, all sustain would be removed, even potions and lifesteal. I guess I shouldn't be surprised he has Ali/Taric in his crosshairs now.
    If that were my goal, it's not hard to do. I talked about the thing that's problematic earlier (dedicated healers), not healing and sustain...minion lifestealing rates being 100% bugs me a bit, but other than that, I'm fine with Lifesteal.
    #17
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by Kawzuk
    I've read this tidbit over a few times and pondered, coming up with an idea. What would be the problem with making a support character that can weaken enemies? Not necessarily through doing damage themselves, but in a way where they can almost feel like a...poisonous offensive support, similar to how Leona's passive basically buffs the amount of damage an ally does for one hit, how Malphite's Ground Slam reduces the attack speed of enemies, how Karma's Spirit Bond speeds an ally or slows an enemy, or how there are activate/aura items that degenerate/nerf a champion for X amount of time?

    ^Read over that a few times as well. The only problem I could deduce is the abilities of this support being too much of a damage amplification steroid in lane.
    While this is possible, this is really Lulu's core design with both buffing and debuffing. The reason you don't just do things like a character based -AR/MR/etc is that the stisfaction is low. This means you're actually doing a lot to help your team, but your contributions are largely invisible to yourself, your enemies and your allies. Even if a character like this is strong, the strength would remain unappreciated.
    #18
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by Priamos
    Nothing a few fancy visuals can't fix, right? Or just some red text that says "debuffed"?
    That would communicate the effect, but it wouldn't make it visceral and noticeable. For example, Vlad's ult's % damage amp is pretty unappreciated about how powerful that skill is. It's strong and effective, but Vlad doesn't feel great about it, his allies don't feel great, and enemies don't get it as readily. There's also not a ton of gameplay to debuffing in a lot of cases as you just have less X stat, and don't make decisions much differently - you're just weaker.
    #19
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by XenDryks
    What exactly DO you want a support to do? Because right now I don't understand. If it pokes like Sona, it's nerfed to the ground. If it heals like Soraka, it's toxic. If it uses CC it's OP. If it has auras and debuffs, it's not fun.

    What is a support supposed to do? I really don't understand, because you seem to think everything I could possibly want from a support to be problematic. Please enlighten me :/
    CC, protection and poke is all fine. Burst heals (ie Wish) are fine. Zone control and buffs are fine. Sona was overnerfed, but Sona's problem isn't that she's support, it's that she has almost no gameplay decisions. Sona Stance is real! :P

    Janna is too powerful for the same reasons Nautilus is - except she's also ranged. CC is fine, just the level Janna has makes her consistently and intractibly strong. Every "Janna nerfs will end her post" for all the ones we've done have been false because of this fact; it's not due to not many supports (or kill supports like Leona, Blitz etc would just overtake her in picks) or some other issue - it's due to the fact that Janna is a very, very powerful set of abilities. She always will be, and her being powerful and satisfying without being overpowered or a must-pick is better.
    #20
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
  • Lead Content Designer
    Originally Posted by BadgerDrool
    Trundle! TRUNDLE!!! TRRRRUUUNNDDDLLEEE!!!!

    *breaks down and cries*


    (I'm not trying to derail. Trundle is an example of Morello's comments in action)
    Great example, actually.
    #21
    10 months, 3 weeks ago
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